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How RevOps Can Best Support Sales

Why We Need Sales Methodology and Processes

Barry: Really excited to have you join the podcast James. Could tell us what Sandler does and about your experience?

James: Sure, with pleasure. Sandler is the world’s largest sales performance training company. We focus on three main areas. The first is sales performance and anything to do around that, including prospecting, driving sales, and customer success. The second pillar is management success, and the third is leadership excellence. Around those three areas, Sandler has been helping a myriad of companies over the years to break through glass ceilings, setting good methodology and process, and drive opportunities across the finish line in a controlled manner.

Barry: Great. One thing that I want to start with, based on your intro, is methodology processes. In RevOps and Sales, people are always arguing, “Oh, this is a method. This is a process. This is something else.” What is the difference? What is the methodology? What is the process? What is operations? Help us understand.

James: Great question. A lot of people ask me, “James, how do you get into this type of business?” I’m 48, and I’ve been in sales since I was 10 years old, and about seven to ten years ago, no one had process. Everyone was winging it. And I decided I wanted to do something about it. So then, I made the decision to bring Sandler to Israel. I got the rights to Israel and became the exclusive delivery for Sandler here.

And I think the number one issue I see when I go into companies is that they don’t have a real sales methodology. They wing it. They have a process. They have a way of doing things. It might be some process they’ve set up in their CRM or sales operations. It is done for them, which is okay. It’s somewhat intuitive. It might be based on some old-fashioned stuff. It might even be based on how they implement the CRM implementation. And they leave it that way and hope everyone will adjust.

Here’s a thing. When I come into companies, I don’t usually change what they do. What we do, and that’s the whole idea of good, strong, and powerful sales performance training, is let’s pretend you have a process. What I do is I come in and give you a selling system. Once you’re able to overlay those two and combine them, what you then get is a sales methodology.

So you have the sales process. You bring in and put on a selling system, and then you get methodology. The thing is that we’re dealing with human beings. Sales professionals are in the business of behavior. They’re not in the selling business. And I think that’s another misconception. It’s not about the technique they let me know. It’s about how they use the technique, if they use the technique, and when they use the technique.

And so if you think a little bit about those components, process, a selling system which brings methodology, then what we need to do is we need to give our people the ability to execute that. How do we do that? By teaching them technique. Here’s another misconception, while taking that technique, everyone in sales training and you have the enablement teams do an offsite here and an offsite there and a kickoff and all these things. Great.

The problem is that once they’re trained, nothing really changes because they go back to their old ways. And the idea of strong methodology and embedding it in an organization requires the implementation of reinforcement. Very similar to the way I tell my clients, I’m not a hospital, I’m not a clinic. This is a gym. Sales professionals need to constantly work on themselves and reinforce themselves in order to stick to that methodology. And it’s not what they do that’s important. Well, that is important, but it’s how they do it. It’s not what they ask, but it’s how they ask. It’s not what they do, but it’s how they do it, how they execute, how they drive opportunities through the funnel, how they qualify, how they present, and of course, how they close, not what they do to close. It’s how they do it.

And so I think that’s the big difference. And I think that will clear up that misconception regarding process, system, methodology, and so on. A methodology is a process with a selling system embedded onto it. And that’s my world and what we bring to the table.

The Importance of Qualifying Sales Leads

Barry: So, I’m not a sales guy, but if a process means in general, “Oh, if you sell if you have to change the qualification, once you get to this stage?” So that would be a sales process, but once you add more explanation, then it becomes a methodology. That’s a very simple example. But is that what you’re telling me?

James: I mean, at the end of the day, most companies I go into we see what they’re doing and I ask them, “How do you qualify around here?” And they say, “Well, we ask a couple of questions. We do some BANT,” which is completely out of date. And usually, what they’re doing is that they’re doing at an earlier stage, which they’re not getting the real answers. So at the end of the day, yes, it’s about knowing what to ask, how to ask it, and how deep you go in.

I think another thing that might be common to the listeners of this podcast, especially if you’re a manager out there listening to this, they might notice that their sales professionals are not thorough enough. They’re qualifying easy. And then it’s difficult for them to close deals. And then they have to give out margins, discounts and give away all this other stuff to get a deal. When in fact what they should be doing is qualifying heavily, qualifying strong. Asking very tough questions, looking to actually disqualify the prospect in order to find the gold out there that has the compelling pain and is willing to pay the price in order to make sure that pain goes away and it never comes back to bother them ever again.

Barry: Yes. Doing the hard things to sales, I guess. And for me, that makes a lot of sense. It’s easier said than done, though. And what you talk about is the reinforcement, processes, and methodologies to make sure that people actually do it, even if in theory, they agree to make sure that they actually execute.

James: Listen, I think sales is probably one of the best professions out there. We get to do what we want. We get to talk to people and help them solve problems. We get to ask the toughest questions. We build good relationships. We decide if they’re qualified or not. But if you think a little bit about it, most sales professionals are not trained to do the job the way they should be doing. It’s an easy role to get into. It’s an easy role to get out of. It’s an easy role to move from company to company. And in most cases, what is happening is we’re not getting enough of that support from management, operations, enablement, and leadership. And so, at the end of the day, sales professionals, in my opinion, should have the knowledge and the skillsets to be the best at what they do.

Sometimes it’s not a Sales Problem

Barry: Absolutely. Could you walk us through an interesting story that you keep on seeing over and over when you talk to CEOs about some of their sales?

James: Well, I hope I’m not offending anyone by saying this, but it does happen quite a bit that I get invited into companies, CEOs invite me in, sometimes the VP sales, CROs, and we have a conversation and they say, “James, we have these sales issues. What do you think? What do you say?” And I tell them, I’m going to ask you some questions. We have a nice conversation. And after the end of the meeting, usually, I turn around to them and say, “Look, how can I tell you without offending you that I don’t think you have a sales problem.”

And they say, “What do you mean?” I said, “Well, would you be surprised if I told you that I think the sales problem is the symptom is the real problem?” And they say, “Well, what do you mean?” I said, “Well, I don’t want to offend you, God forbid, but I don’t think you have a sales problem. I think you have a leadership issue. And the sales problem is just the symptom of the real problem.”

The problems that I find usually go along the lines of recruitment issues, hiring the wrong people, being fast to hire, or slow to fire. And simply because they need to get some butts in the seats. And I get that and they need to get people on the phones and so on. There’s a lot of pressure. Emotional pressure from leadership. HR are not qualifying their sales professionals well enough. And then what happens is they’re hiring people that might have been in the same role over and over again for a few years. And they’re basically moving from company to company, doing absolutely the same thing, and bringing the same mediocre results.

So a lot of recruitment issues that we see, we can solve, but a lot of times that’s not something that people want to admit that they’re making a mistake over. Other stuff we find is with everything you do with filling up the top of the funnel. I’ll say this, and again, this is a CEO conversation. No CEOs I’ve met admitted that their number one problem is that they have a weak funnel. Some of them say, “We have a full funnel.” But the funnel isn’t full of great opportunities. It’s just full of fluff. It is not going anywhere.

And so, when you look at the top of the funnel of most companies, some companies do it well, and they understand that there’s a strong balance between marketing and sales development. They understand that there’s a strong correlation between a new business, new logos, expanding their enterprises or the accounts that they’re in, getting referrals, and building off from different angles.

Some are not aware and that’s also okay. And I think most companies have a comfort zone when it comes to this stuff. No one is willing to take, I’d say a little bit of a risk and try something new because they’re not really sure if it will eliminate what they’ve done up until now.

So these are the type of things I see. And at the end of the day, I think from a sales leadership perspective, it can be very frustrating for most sales leaders because most sales leaders don’t go to sales leadership school.

A Closing Problem is Really a Process Problem

Barry: Yes, let’s talk about that. It seems that there were two main issues. It’s HR and funnel. Are there any other issues?

James: Oh, yes. I’ll get invited in, tell me they got closing issues. “We’re not closing enough business.” They tell me, honestly, really tell me more about that. “We’re doing everything. We’re perfect. Everything’s well. We’re opening the door, we’re building the relationship. We’re showing value. We’re doing everything. We just have a little bit of a closing problem.” Now, “How can I tell you without offending you, Mr. CEO, I don’t think you have a closing problem. I think you have a process problem that’s leading to a closing problem.”

And so these are other issues that we find quite a lot. Again, all can be solved if opportunities are qualified well enough. And I think I’m going to go back to that HR and recruitment part because what I find at the end of the day is that you have sales reps that are coming in with a lot of good intentions. Having said that, they’re not actually delivering the sizzle simply because either one, they don’t know how to do it. They haven’t been taught well. Or two, they have a lot of belief issues and baggage that they’re carrying with them. They’re holding them back.

For example, if you have a company and I don’t know if there’s one out there that sounds familiar, you have a company, you have some leads coming in from marketing. You have some inbound stuff, but people are not picking up the phone. They should be. They can. They have a phone next to them. They can get some numbers, but they’re just not doing it.

Other situations where you have CSNs. This is very popular to talk about customer success these days. Customer success is probably the best salespeople out there because no one suspects them. A salesperson with a mask on. Not only can they upsell and it’s seven times cheaper to get business from a current client that is bringing a new client, but also they have access to enterprise, and they can get referrals. There’s so much they could be doing in order to increase revenue. But what we find is what they’re doing is they’re mostly gravitating toward putting out fires, and fixing problems because they simply don’t know how to grow revenue from their function. And that breaks down to some elements when it comes to sales professionals. Do you want to talk about that? Like five weaknesses of salespeople?

The 5 Weaknesses of Salespeople

Barry: Let’s do it.

James: All right. Here are the five weaknesses of salespeople. Number one is ambition and drive. And if there’s anyone out there listening to this and you’re a sales leader and you ask your salespeople or you’re hiring a salesperson, you ask them, what is your level of ambition and drive from the scale of one to 10, what will they say?

Barry: Ten.

James: Absolutely. Have you ever met anyone that said less? But is it really a 10? What do we need to figure out in order to understand what motivates this person? Some people are just not cut for consultative sales. They’re just not made of the material. And some people are not made for account sales. And we have to figure that out because that will affect their performance and top-line revenue.

Number two, when the sales professionals’ need to be liked is higher than their need to be effective, the company will lose money. Just simple and clear. Because a sales professional is in a rejection business. A sales professional needs to qualify really hard. And if the sales professional comes in to get his emotional needs met. What’s happening is that they’re getting strung along by the prospect. There’s no equal business statute.

Number three is fear of rejection. How well does a salesperson deal with the word no? Here’s the thing, in sales the word ‘no’ is more apparent than the word ‘yes’. And if a sales professional is not comfortable with the word no, go and look for another job. I personally believe that ‘no’ is the most powerful word. And I teach my clients and I teach the salespeople I work with, the leadership I work with to go for the ‘no’ first and then start to sell.

The human brain has 70,000 thoughts a day and 87% of those are negative. So we’re actually more negative than positive. And those negative thoughts that are yesterday’s thoughts are what we call baggage or reoccurring negative thoughts. And so if our prospects are buyers, our clients think that way we have to be comfortable with ‘no’ because it’s only natural. And so I think that is a huge component, fear of rejection. And if a sales professional is not aware of these elements, then his chances of being successful are slim. All right, that’s number three.

Number four, professional visitors. These guys are always busy, always on the phone, always giving demos, always doing this and that. Always busy but they’re closing very little business. We call them professional visitors. That might sound familiar to anyone out there.

And finally, emotional composure. That’s the last one. What we call happy ears. You’ll have a prospect, he won’t be qualified. He won’t have pain. He won’t have money. He won’t be able to make a decision. Not even able to say the word yes. He has absolutely no power in his company. He has no money or a problem.

But the sales professional thinks that he’s hearing a ‘yes’. And so what he does is he keeps them in his funnel because he thinks he hears a ‘yes’, when actually there’s absolutely nothing. There’s no deal. There’s no pain. There’s no money. Everyone knows it. The prospect knows it. The salesperson’s managers know it. The salesperson’s wife knows it. The neighbors know it. The team knows it. The CEO knows it. The shareholders know it. The whole world knows it except the salesperson.

This brings me to the predictability of success. And when it comes to sales, the predictability of success is what counts. And this is the essence of real training. We talked a little bit about sales training and methodology. This right now is the difference between anyone out there that thinks that they’re a sales trainer. They come and put together something, or read a couple of books and think they figured it out.

The essence of the predictability of success in sales goes down to three main areas. Number one is belief. What is the belief system of that sales professional? How strong is that belief system of his? Their money concept, their belief about success, their belief about their roles, and so on. Number two is behaviors, and three is baggage.

I have a lot of companies where I do a lot of hiring help for the companies I work with. They always talk to me and others about the hiring interview. Many times they bring me a CV and say “This guy’s great. He’s got 15 years of experience.” And you know, I looked at the CV and I maybe even talk to the guy. I say that to the sales manager. I say, “Look, I don’t think this guy has 15 years of experience.” And they’d say, “What do you mean?” So “Well, what I think I see here is he’s got one year of experience, 15 times over.” 

What’s happening is that they’re going from role to role and just dumping this baggage that they’re accumulating. And that’s why sales professionals get burned out. But companies still hire them because they hope that something will be different. The sales professional hopes that something will be different in the company they get hired in. And the company hopes that the sales professional will bring in something that someone else doesn’t have. And guess what, hope is not a strategy.

This brings the last point and that’s ego. And it’s bringing us all back to the sales training, sales performance, and methodology conversation. Ego is super important when it comes to predictability. Why? If someone’s ego is too high, they won’t want to learn new things. They won’t want to try new things. If someone’s ego is too low, they can’t learn new things. They can’t try new things. So ‘won’t versus can’t’ when it comes to ego is an important thing. It needs to be right in the middle.

And I’m sure we’ve met people that we thought had a huge ego when in fact they actually have a very small one, but it looks the same. It feels the same. And we also struggle with our egos. We’re only human beings. We’re human beings. Our brain has been designed not for 2022, our brain is designed for 20,000, 30,000, maybe five 50,000 years ago. It is designed to survive not to succeed.

And so until we understand that, and we can be open from a leadership perspective to understand and accept the science behind sales, it’ll be very difficult for us to build a strong and powerful team that will drive companies forward. There are companies out there that are doing it. They have realized this stuff, but again, it all goes back to leadership. Leadership has to be involved. They have to own it. They have to understand it, they have to be comfortable with those changes.

In summary, the 5 Weaknesses of Salespeople are:

  1. Ambition and drive
  2. The sales professionals’ need to be liked is higher than their need to be effective
  3. Fear of rejection
  4. They are professional visitors
  5. Emotional composure – they want to disqualify a prospect

Leadership Doesn’t Know Sales

Barry: This is really helpful for anyone hiring or thinking about what they need to do to get to the next step. I heard something recently and I think you’d be perfect for answering this. He’s a sales guy. He said, “I wish my manager or my management understood sales. Your friends, they know sales, but my management doesn’t know sales.” I had no idea what that means. I still don’t know. And obviously, you don’t know the company or the person but if you heard a salesperson with lots of years of experience that isn’t one of those jumpers, but has some experience, what would that mean to you?

James: I think they’re right. Leadership doesn’t know sales. There are a lot of business owners out there that have wonderful businesses. They’ve built good businesses. If we’re looking at the tech scene, a lot of startup founders have come up with a great idea. Yes, 100% that their ideas are awesome and they’re making the world a better place. But they don’t know how to sell. And a lot of times what we find is their idea of good sales is getting people on a Zoom and just showing them. And when they’re doing that, what they’re doing is they’re driving those prospects away instead of bringing them in.

And I’m going to go back to the brain part. I do a lot of neuroscience training. So I talk a lot about how the brain works and how we align our brains with the brains over prospects. And our brain is basically built into three main areas when it comes to selling and buying.

The first areas are the prefrontal cortex. It’s the youngest part of the brain. It’s the front part. It’s very young. It’s only 200,000 years old in evolution and it runs at a speed of 42 bytes per second. So it processes data at 42 bytes per second.

The second area of the brain is the limbic system. It’s the emotional part. It has an amygdala in it. Amygdala is a gland that is emotionally triggered. So that area of the brain is emotionally triggered completely. It has no language. And it’s connected directly to the gut. So if you guys get a gut feeling at any point, you can’t really put your finger on it, that’s why. And it’s about 20-25 million years old in evolution, and it processes data at a rate of 42 million bytes per second. It’s way faster than the rational brain.

And finally, the reptilian brain, it’s the survival brain, 200 million years old in evolution, the monkey brain, the dinosaur brain, the crocodile brain. And that’s a survival brain. Fight, flight, and freeze. That’s where that comes from. And so think a little bit about a sales scenario, where a leader says, “Mr. Salesperson, give them a demo, show them how wonderful our tool is. They’ll have to buy it because it just makes sense because it’s beautiful. It’s her baby.” And the sales guy says, “Okay, boss I’ll do it.”

And he goes on and he doesn’t understand why people are coming on. He’s shoving information down their throat, but their brain can’t process it because it works very slowly. And so in fact what’s happening is that prospect is basically getting pushed by all this data, it’s burning their cells out and they won’t say lock on, so they say, well, that would wonderful send information and we’ll get back to you simply because they can’t process it well enough.

And so what happens eventually is the company’s becoming emotional because they need to sell so they are pushing more and on the other side, they’re getting all this data which they don’t even know how to process yet. And so at the end of the day, until leadership understands the science and psychology of sales, they’ll continue making this basic mistake that’s costing them time, money, and rapid growth. I think that’s something that a lot of leaders don’t understand.

Stop Selling Emotionally

Barry: How do you resolve that? Meaning it’s obviously emotional, right? So it’s not so easy to get someone to change something like that.

James: Exactly. People buy emotionally then we justify the decision intellectually and salespeople have to stop selling emotionally. And how do you do it? It’s a process. As I said, I’m in the behavioral change business. At the end of the day, if we want to learn any new skill and want to be good at something, we have to practice, even if it’s a mental game. And so you have to look out at a lot of good sales companies that have good sales culture. They realize that it’s a behavioral game.

That mindset is important. Always maintaining a strong and cutting-edge technique is key. So understanding that that is a necessity in the organization. The moment they understand, they’re willing to invest time, money, resources, and access the right people in a strong sales function, then they will see good results and success.

Sales is basically the oxygen tank of the business. And no one’s really investing in it in the real way. They’re buying systems, tools, and technology, but that’s not solving the core issue, which is we are sales professionals and we are emotional creatures. Therefore, we need to know how to control our emotions and work out our rational brains. And the way we do that is with a methodology. It’s a process that keeps us safe.

How RevOps Can Best Support Sales

Barry: For the RevOps professionals who are listening to this podcast, what can you tell them on how they can support the sales function in the best way? Think about it like this, revenue opertions gets a lot of requests from sales, “Oh, add this field or do this thing for me. This is what I need in Salesforce, etc.” What would be the top two or three strategic things RevOps could do for their sales team that would actually help accelerate sales?

James: Great question. There are a few things that need to happen. Number one would be qualification. Qualification is key. Most companies qualify easily and then it’s hard for them to close the deal. Everyone’s a prospect. Anyone can buy. Then the way they close them is by giving them a discount. That’s not selling. That’s wimping out.

And so strong qualification, understanding the systems need a support, strong qualification steps. And if anyone’s aware or knows the sound selling system and understands the way the qualification process works, there are extremely powerful and important questions that need to be answered. And I think another thing is they’re not really aware of how to qualify well enough. So if I ask a company’s sales professionals or even RevOps, “What is your flow with regards to lead to client? How do you define what a lead is?” And they don’t know. They scratch your head. A lead is a name and a number. And then it turns into what? A suspect, not even a prospect yet.

You have someone on the phone, you were asking questions. The buyer’s asking us a ton of questions. They’re trying to get a free consultation right now. I need to figure out what’s going on here. And so they’re just a suspect.

Until we’ve been able to ask at least 75% of our questions, they remain a suspect until which they become a prospect after we’ve got 75% of our questions answered. And when we get 95% of our questions answered, they would become qualified prospects. And once we get a hundred percent of our questions answered, they become a closeable prospect, not even a client yet.

And I think that is in essence right now, it’s that whole qualification. And the way we do that, another thing I think that is required, and this goes for managers too, what I see a lot is that most sales professionals are not pre-call planning at all. There’s no pre-call planning and no call debriefing. So strong, good professionals, they pre-call plan before. And they debrief after the call. And there’s none of that happening either. It’s not in the CRM, it’s not in the systems. It’s just like let’s make the dialer work and hope that something will fall into our net or hope that something will fall out the sky, out the website and then marketing get the pressure and all this other stuff. When in fact sales professionals should be good at filling up the top of their funnel. Let’s pretend, marketing can’t come to work for a week. What do you do then? No more business? I don’t get it.

And also sales professionals, if they are compensated and they want to make money and they have that winter mindset, they always find ways to bring in new leads. Professionals know how to do it.

Barry: Yeah. And that’s for any company, B2B, SaaS, enterprise, or anything.

James: I think that’s true for any type of B2B company. Any strong, good sales professional, if they’re sitting around doing nothing, there’s a problem. There’s a productivity problem. And that’s another thing we can talk about is productivity and accountability.

No Discounts

Barry: One thing I wanted to talk about was discounts. When to you use them, when not to use them, and are people using them effectively?

James: What’s a discount? I don’t know what that is. I haven’t heard of it in years. I don’t give them. I’m sorry. I don’t teach that either. So I can’t help you there. Sorry. I don’t teach people discounts.

Barry: So no discounts?

James: Yeah, no. Guys, here’s the thing. Never give anything away for free. Always get something of equal or more value in return.

A Note About Sales Notes

Barry: All right. So let me do rapid-fire on other things. So discounts we just did. I’m trying to think of. Sales writing notes. What is your opinion on that? Like if you go into Salesforce, there are no notes, is that bad? Is that good?

James: Yeah. So again, clearly, we need our notes. David Sandler, the founder of the Sandler Selling System, one of his rules and key to success, and there were a bunch out there, was always make sure you’re taking good notes, always make sure to take good notes. We’re only human. We’re only human. And we can’t remember stuff and there are some key issues and key elements. And again, I’m going to go back to the most important stuff, which is to make sure to take the right notes about your qualification.

It’s not the surface praying they’re bringing, it’s the real, compelling reasons for that problem to be happening that you’re solving. You have to make sure you’re taking those notes. That information must come onto a scope. Or even if you send a proposal, which by the way, I don’t send proposals and I teach companies not to send proposals too much, but to do it in a different, more method in order to gain the business and not to lose the business.

But to put it on that proposal, on that scope. For example, budget. How comfortable are they talking about money? And a lot of sales professionals don’t really do that. And if they do it, they do it high level. They don’t take the right notes about it. Then that conversation about money gets stuck. And they’re stuck in some kind of a negotiation where they’re getting annihilated because numbers weren’t brought up properly.

Another thing is the decision-makers. And I don’t know if we’re talking a lot of tech companies, I’m sure there are a lot of champions out there. And here’s the thing, I don’t know if anyone sells and likes to use the tool Champion platform, though you need someone in there to help you. I don’t even like the word ‘champion’. A champion is someone who’s won something. Why would you give someone a medal before they’ve ever done anything? But that’s another conversation.

In order for someone to be a champion for White Knight, I would say that two things need to happen. One, that person needs to want you to win as a salesperson. And two, that person needs to have access to power and money in the organization. If those two things are not happening, the chances of helping, in fact getting any help to close the deal are very slim. And those are the two important elements. If you’re not able to maintain good notes on a long process to drive champions and drive that information, just make sure you have the right information the whole time. Then again, I think that’s a miss.

And here’s another thing, profits are not very honest with salespeople. So why not make sure you got your right notes so that you’re able to double-check and make sure that they’re not playing us around too much.

The Importance of Sales Velocity

Barry: Yes. That’s a good point. Sales velocity. How important is sales velocity?

James: Driving opportunities through the funnel with sufficient velocity, is that what you’re asking me?

Barry: Yeah. Like speed to close from quote to close from the beginning.

James: Yeah. here’s the thing. I think that’s another thing that most companies are not aware of. They don’t know how many calls it takes to close a deal or how many calls it should take to close a deal. And what they’re doing is they’re basically hoping that the prospect will lead the process. When in fact it’s them that needs to lead the process.

At Sandler, we have a method called Upfront Contract. It’s a way we get business closed quite fast. And the way we work is we’re constantly driving decisions along the way. So if we decide that in our sales process, it’s a two-call close, three-call close, or even maybe a four-call close. It is a four-call close or a three-call close or a two-call close. There’s no more of this stuff going on.

But if the sales professional isn’t willing and able to communicate that at the beginning of a sales process, they will get strung along. They will get strung along and then just more fluff in the funnel. And so, yes, I’m a huge believer in driving opportunities through the funnel with sufficient velocity towards a close. Also, a ‘no’ by the way is fine by me. I love ‘nos’. That’s okay. You get a ‘no’, you save time. You learn a lesson, you get a referral, you sell beyond the no, I like to go get a no. And then you start to sell. Fair? And here’s another thing.

And anyone listening to this and knows me, you know, I teach this. I will not take ‘no’ from someone who cannot say the word ‘yes’ to me. You got to make sure they can say the word ‘yes’. If you can’t say the word ‘yes’, find the person who can say the word ‘yes’. But that is part of your velocity. And if no one can say the word ‘yes’, close it. Let’s move on and get someone else. That’s the game. Sales is a scavenger hunt. It’s what it is. It’s sifting.

Barry: bsolutely. James, I think maybe we even should do three more podcasts together, but this was really fun. I really appreciate it. And if anyone is listening and they would like to use some of your services or have any questions for you, what’s the best way for them to reach you?

James: Yes. First of all, I apologize if I offended anybody on this, but I’m not here to say what people want to hear, I’m here to say what people need to hear. And if you want to reach out, you can find me on LinkedIn. Look for James Abraham, Sandler Training Israel, or trainer. You can check out my website. It’s I’m in Israel, everyone knows me, reach out.

Let’s have a conversation, I’m always happy to expand my network. I don’t know if we can work together, but I’m always happy to have a conversation and get to know each other. And if I can support anyone else on the network as well, an introduction referral to anyone I know and support them if someone’s looking for work, if someone’s looking for sales professionals, if someone’s looking for management stuff, just let me know. I’m happy to support you.

Barry: That’s awesome. All right. Well, James, thanks a lot. And I’ll be in touch.

James: Good selling, guys. Take care.