About the speaker

Jen Igartua is the CEO of Go Nimbly, the go-to Revenue Operations experts for high-growth companies. When she’s not running Go Nimbly, Jen also has a physical games business that she’s passionate about.

Mark Lerner:

All right, welcome everybody to this episode of the RevAmp podcast. I’m excited to have Jen here with us to chat about the new expectations and the new world we live in regarding RevOps and some of the things we can do to fortify ourselves and remain competitive in the space going forward. But before we jump into the conversation, Jen, why don’t you tell the folks at home about yourself and your background and how you got into this fun world we were in?

Jen Igartua:

Yeah, I love talking about me. That works. So, I’ll start a little bit about my journey. My name’s Jenny Gar. I run a consulting company called Go Nimbly. We rev ops consultancy. We were the first to call ourselves that. So I’ve been around more than, yeah, I think we’ve hit ten years, so right around ten years. But if we fast forward to when I started my career, I started at a company called Bluewolf, which anybody who’s been in the industry for a while might recognize as the first Salesforce partner. I think the story is Mark Benioff called our CEO, Eric Ridge, and said, Hey, I need services. And then he started Blue Wolf, and it kind of blew up from there. So, I started my career; I was the first hire for their marketing automation team. So, I was there to learn Eloqua Marketo and HubSpot and these marketing automation tools.

Jen Igartua:

They saw that as a new business line. Pretty quickly, I realized that anything I did in that system or anything I did with the marketing team or at the top of the funnel was affecting sales. And if I didn’t have their buy-in buy, I had trouble. I also learned the hard way I would clean up data in one system, and then 10 minutes later, it’d be dirty again, and I didn’t know why. And so I got very obsessed with the idea that I needed to unify these teams, and even more so, why is it that they’re so misaligned when it’s so obvious that they’re actually on the same page? We should be mad at finance; they’re the ones not giving us a budget. Why are we mad at each other? Fast forward a few years, and that’s when we started to go nimbly. We had the original tagline before Rev ops unified the business stack, and we were breaking down tech silos and data silos, and eventually, people silos. And that’s really the precipice of going nimbly.

Mark Lerner:

Yeah, that’s super fascinating. You’ve had a really great viewpoint of the evolution that’s been going on. I assume when you’re at Blue Wolf, at least when it started, the concept of revenue inspirations was probably not in the lexicon way it is now. No, it wasn’t. So you came to the same conclusion, which I think a lot of people came to later: These things cannot exist in a vacuum; they all impact each other. And so that was a clear evolutionary step in Rev ops. I think that with all of the uncertainty and changes and all the things that have happened in the last, let’s say, five years from Covid and then everything that’s happened since then and now and the introduction of large language models as a kind of big thing as well. I think we’re seeing the evolution continue here where somebody who had, let’s say, grown up in the

Jen Igartua:

Before times

Mark Lerner:

Had expected one thing going forward, and the ground may have started to shift under them. And so I think those changes are really important to identify and so that people can really ensure that they have longevity and don’t kind of fall out from the needs of the space. So, I wanted to touch on that. I know when we spoke before, there were a few core pillars here, but in your estimation, what are some of those changes? Well, first, lemme say, do you question the baseline hypothesis there that there’s an evolution, or do you see it similarly?

Jen Igartua:

No, I don’t think any of us can question that things have changed. I was joking around with someone; I’m like, man, I’m done with gut punches. It has been just five years of COVID-19 and great resignation, and the tech space has also felt a bunch of gut punches in the past year. And so no, there’s definitely a change, and we know that economically right, money just got more expensive. It is as simple as that. We can’t throw money at things the way we used to, and that has inherently changed the way that we do business, especially in the SaaS space. And so, I do not question your hypothesis that things have changed. I think that there are a couple of areas, including AI, right? AI coming into place has put a fire under a lot of businesses and is making sure that there’s setting up for the future, and it’s confusing. What does that even mean?

Jen Igartua:

So yeah, I’m with you. I would say that there is also one other thing, and I am of this generation, too; of course, you never think that you’re the one at fault. So I think I’m great and didn’t do anything wrong, but I will say that any of us who grew up in this era of a lot of money and a lot of growth and a lot of, quite frankly, tech throwing money at humans and also all US-based, right? We were so willing to just hire a ton of very expensive people in San Francisco and New York. It was wild, and we were paying these insane salaries. I think that’s normalized a little bit. I also think that with the fact that it is harder to operate companies and SaaS companies, our roles have gotten more difficult. I do think there’s a generation that’s being left behind that doesn’t have the grit and the willingness to work in a hard industry because it hasn’t always been hard.

Jen Igartua:

People were making tons of money, and their stock was worth a ton of money. Now, there’s more risk, and expectations are higher. So I think that we are in the midst of quite a lot. I was at the CEO summit for Pavilion a couple of months ago. I broke my leg during, so you think I’d remember, but I was there, and Jason Lemkin was talking about this, that there’s this lost generation, this, quite frankly, somewhat senior leader right now that hasn’t been in the trenches and they don’t know what it’s like to have this grit to operate businesses in a really hard space. And so I think we have this gap in the market as well.

Mark Lerner:

Yeah, I agree. I mean think, and I’m of this generation too. I’d like to think I almost unique Snowflake. 

Jen Igartua:

Not Us. Not us. We’re great.

Mark Lerner:

I think I fall into what they call a geriatric millennial, which Is…

Jen Igartua:

Yeah, me too.

Mark Lerner:

Most of the time, I’ve been in the zero interest rate phenomenon environment, but I’d like to think of myself as being aware of history and.com bust and all of these things. And so I think that I agree, and sometimes it’s tough love for people to hear that, but you also don’t want to be lied to. There’s definitely a need to buckle down and take on certain challenges that you may not have had before. But one of the things I know is that the kind of using the term more with less is a bit of a misnomer. But one of the things that I’ve observed and that many have observed is that we are in a world where, regardless of the cost growth at all costs, it doesn’t matter. Just get the next one. If that means spending as much as you want, as long as you get that customer, we’ll figure it out, and we’ll get more money in investment. Obviously, that’s changed, and one of the byproducts of that is that more of that revenue growth is now being looked at as a function of increasing or maintaining your existing base of customers. So what is the impact and the requirements on someone in an ops role to start focusing on that part of the funnel, and where can value be added? What are some of the insights and skills that are needed there?

Jen Igartua:

Yeah, isn’t it wild to think that as SaaS operators, we need to think about retaining revenue? Crazy that that’s also important. I’m actually here for it. I like this era. I like building companies that are customer-obsessed. I like thinking about the long-term of a customer’s lifetime with you. I like renewal workflows; I like expansion workflows. I find them really fun. I think probably because I spent a lot of my career on top of the funnel that maybe there’s a newness for me that I enjoy. I mean, I’ve been doing it for a while, but there’s something I really love about that sort of post-sale motion. And I also feel like customer success has gotten the short of the stick for a long time, and that’s also changing. They’re getting more investment, and they’re getting a seat at the table, and I’m here for it.

Jen Igartua:

So yes, that’s changing. NRR is becoming really important, being tracked more than I’ve ever seen it before, and really thinking about how much we are not only retaining but expanding existing revenue. Can we have targets around that? Can we have motions around that? And it’s not just a fingers crossed; the CSM will do it. You asked about some cool things. So, there are some things that I see that are really fun, and everybody should do. So, two things. One, I think our handoff to our go-to-market team is broken. We are doing a just justice to sales and CS and even marketing folks by here’s the typical workflow. Somebody submits a form online, and I stamp it with an MQL date, and I change the status to ready or MQL or fill in the blank and a salesperson, maybe I get an alert, maybe I look at a list, and I scroll down maybe, and I see another campaign history, and I try to understand this came from a webinar and I pick up the phone.

Jen Igartua:

That’s crazy. It’s crazy that we are, and then we get mad that the call went badly. Then, as marketers, you should have known that they came to the event and that it was about X, Y, and Z, and you should have talked about three of these features. And it’s wild that we have these super high expectations, but we’re giving people basically the bare minimum. So it’s a project we’ve done now with a few of our customers, and it’s not just for sales. You can think about it as new business or expansion or onboarding, but essentially saying, Hey, this customer prospect free trial, whatever needs a human touch. And how do we give somebody an alert that not only says, Hey, you’re required to pick up the phone or send an email? This is why. Also, here are really interesting data points about their usage, demographics, and things that are going on in the industry.

Jen Igartua:

Why do we think that? And I think one of the big trends is when I first started my career, we wanted to normalize these data points and put ’em in a hundred fields, and now we’re almost going backward and be like, Nah, just give ’em a paragraph, ’em skim a paragraph that says, Hey, this company just did some funding. Their CEO is super engaged in the platform. One of the champions just deactivated, and they visited pages about features one, two, and three. I can pick up the phone and have a conversation now as opposed to leading a source webinar. So I think that’s a huge category of a place where we can help every part of the funnel, but let’s actually have a really compelling way to hand off a lead to a customer, a churn risk. I said two, but I’ll pause there for a second.

Mark Lerner:

Well, I’m so ready to dive into the data thing as well, but also just for some of the folks at home, maybe we could just give a quick kind of definition of NRR and what it means measuring because the name itself is somewhat of a misnomer if you think about it, but yeah, I don’t know.

Jen Igartua:

Yeah, it’s net revenue retention, and you’ll also hear about GRR gross revenue retention. And I mean, you could just think about it as I start with a hundred K from my existing customer base, and if I end at one 20 k, I have 120% NRR, which includes expansions, and then gross N nor does not include expansion. So I had a hundred K of customers, and that a hundred K still exists with me. Even if some of them expanded, that’s a hundred, and if I turn 20, mine would be 80. So, one includes expansions, and the other does not. You could think about it like that, and it obviously tells you whether or not your customers are staying with you, whether they’re renewing with you, and whether they’re expanding with you.

Mark Lerner:

Yeah. Yeah. I think the reason I was thinking of it as somewhat of a misnomer is because, especially in the SaaS world, there’s often an expectation that NRR is above a hundred percent if you’re seeing

Jen Igartua:

Does it includes expansions,

Mark Lerner:

Right? Exactly. So it’s retaining and expanding. Yeah.

Jen Igartua:

And your GRR can’t be over a hundred because you’re not including expansions. So only less it could only be a hundred at best.

Mark Lerner:

Cool. Awesome. So, back to what you were saying about the expectations of context for a sales rep based on the kind of activity and not giving them something to work with, and in previous times, we always focused on structured data. We wanted a field and all these things, probably for reporting one. It’s interesting that we’re moving away from that, right? If you think about it in the context of structured versus unstructured data, we want to provide a unique context to sales reps. Obviously, to my ears, I think AI plays a big part here as well. But yeah, I mean, so let’s talk a little bit about that. About a year and a half ago, two years ago, I don’t remember when it was; it was around Thanksgiving.

Jen Igartua:

What is time, Right? 

Mark Lerner:

It’s a flat circle. It’s not that long on the scale of things, since we all have even ever heard of anything called GPT and everything that’s come with it and now it’s taken off like crazy. I think there was some really big hype. Maybe that’s been tempered a little bit, but I guess from where you’re sitting, what is the role of AI for somebody in an ops role today? And what should the expectations be going forward? What should we expect?

Jen Igartua:

Yeah. Here’s what I’ll say. We work with some of the most incredible SaaS companies, so I’ve had the pleasure of working with Twilio Zendesk, Intercom, Watershed Coursera, and PagerDuty, and these are really, really incredible companies. And I guess I just wanted to let everybody know we’re all figuring it out. So you’re not sitting here, not having done a bunch of AI work, and you’re probably feeling like you’re being left behind. We’re definitely all figuring it out. I think we’re all kind of the trough of disillusionment right now. Is it through disillusion or disillusionment? One of the two? We’re in both.

Mark Lerner:

Yeah. I thought it was a trough of despair.

Jen Igartua:

Oh, despair. Disillusion. Yeah. Something along those lines. I think we’re getting there. We thought this was going to be amazing, really easy to implement, etc. And then, just like anything else, understanding the problem space and what you’re applying it to is just as important. Also, a lot of tools, including AI, are already available. We didn’t have to build it ourselves. I think a really great champion of this is going all your recaps create. I use the follow-up email feature at the end of every sales call if I’m in a sales call with you. Yes, my email was AI-generated. We’re using all of that to identify risk. It’s also very good. Rattle does a nice job of this, too, but basically saying, Hey, we read between the lines, and it looks like they don’t have a budget. This stuff is working. It’s embedded in the tools that we’re using.

Jen Igartua:

And so yes, of course, it’s lovely for you to create your own AI everything, but it’s catching up with us. These other companies are giving us these features. So I say all that to basically say it’s okay. Nobody freaks out. Nobody’s figured this out. We’re still early. The other side of it is we don’t want to get one of the easiest ways to get left behind if your data is a mess. So if you do want to do interesting analytics, interesting automation where you start to doubt it, you could feed IT data all day long, you could feed IT prompts all day long, but if your data’s bad, then the automation’s bad and the insights are bad and the follow-up emails are bad, all that good stuff. And so what we’re seeing now is that Forever Ops always comes in and says, Hey, your data’s a mess.

Jen Igartua:

We have to fix it. But it’s really expensive and so easy to deprioritize that it gets deprioritized. Well, now I’m finding that it’s getting prioritized. We’re doing more because we track all the work that we do, and we can see trends within it. We’re doing a lot more data normalization, data cleanup, and data integrity work than ever before. And some of it is automated. You can use lots of tools to automate the cleanup of your data. There is still a portion that is human-led, and I think a lot of people try to hide that. Even your big platforms that do this have a team in Manila that executes and cleans data. So I think there’s a portion that can be automated, but the big outcome is you’re going to have a normalized database with which you can automate and implement AI. And I think the big thing is there’s no over-investing in that right now.

Mark Lerner:

And I think actually someone, one of the previous guests that I spoke to, pointed this out, which I hadn’t considered. There’s a direct correlation between, according to this person from what he’s observed, the size of the company and the level of adoption of AI, meaning it’s inverse. 

Jen Igartua:

I was going to say,

Mark Lerner:

The less it’s made its way through. I agree, and that’s an interesting thing. I like that just as somebody who likes the startups. Yeah, the scrappiness. I like that and I hope it’s true. I have not seen any.

Jen Igartua:

It’s true. It’s true. But I think it’s true in a lot of industries. Whenever you have anything, it feels risky, right? Automation is risky, and people are afraid of their data, etc. Older people like to use a term more often. Oh my gosh, what do I call it? In organizational design, these companies are more brittle, so they innovate a lot less when you’re just bigger and more risk-averse. It’s the same thing. I’m going to do a really weird parallel because it’s 4/20; if you look at it’s 4/22, but

Mark Lerner:

I was like…

Jen Igartua:

In the spirit, in the spirit, it’s 4/20 week. And if you think about cannabis tech, it’s not that any cannabis tech is not repeatable by a company that already exists. POS systems, CRM, banking logistics. They could have done it, but they were too risk-averse to go after it. And so that’s why you had all these startups that were able to capitalize on that risk. It’s similar in that way where it’s like they’re going to let the smaller, more nimble, more, quite frankly chaotic, more willing to do lots of different things. They’re going to be the ones innovating. You’ll see that a lot of innovation that happens at giant companies is through the acquisition of startups or through creating a startup within the company because you need to be able to move quickly, make decisions, and take risks, and it’s hard to do that in a bureaucratic place. So I don’t know for a fact that your guest was right, but from what I know, I would put money on it.

Mark Lerner:

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it’s an interesting phenomenon, I guess. So there’s a lot of fear. I think broadly, some of it is realistic, and some of it may be inspired by science fiction that one day, there will be no jobs or anything like that. I can say that I’m of the opinion that it’s not going to be an AI that takes on your job. It’s going to be a human that knows how to leverage AI that will likely do

Jen Igartua:

That also takes my job. Yeah, it’s tough. What if we had all the machines do the work, and we could all hang out? Maybe there’s a world where we reduce the number of hours we work, and we have the machines do the work. I just wish the machines were doing the hard work, the mundane, the data entry, and we got to do the interesting, cool stuff and stop teaching robots to paint. I’ll paint. We can all paint. And so I do think that it’s the type of work I would love to be seeing machinery do the work that we don’t want to do and AI do the work that’s really hard for us to do. And we do the other, we do the more innovative, interesting connection, relationship building kind of work. Take sellers, for example. A big fear is whether the SDR role will change or go away.

Jen Igartua:

We’ll take the SDRs job, we should. They don’t like that job either. SDR doesn’t want to send a thousand emails a week and be clicking a Chrome extension on LinkedIn, updating data, and clicking around, and they don’t want to do that work. They want to do the interesting work. So great. We automate that, and they become somebody who is more in charge of the experience. Their role’s going to change. They’re going to have to know their product and industry much deeper and be more business analysts. And actually, what sales development was a long time ago, which is to meet with people, go to events, go be in person, go understand the space, and go add value. And so sellers are still necessary. We’re going to elevate them. And I think that’s the same across the board: less data entry, but more data analysis. We’ll figure out the new normal. I am not too afraid of it, but I welcome it. I think that my worry is that the world is on fire and climate change is happening. And that’s the thing we should all be afraid of. AI may not catch up to us if we don’t fix the other bigger problems.

Mark Lerner:

Maybe AI will help us fix those.

Jen Igartua:

Maybe AI fixes that. That would be rad.

Mark Lerner:

I mean, that’s kind of what I hang my hopes on, but that’s a question, right?

Jen Igartua:

Totally.

Mark Lerner:

I have to believe somewhere deep down that we figured it out, and maybe AI has helped us there or something.

Jen Igartua:

For sure. No, I think that’s a huge application. My sister is actually a geneticist and a data scientist. She works at a company called Tempus, and they work with giant data sets doing really interesting pharma research to understand, Hey, can a drug do X or which treatment is best for cancer? And they’re investing a lot of money. What does the power of AI do for this kind of research that’s still very deeply based on science? The scientist doesn’t go away. There’s still the scientific method that is driven by an individual, but using machine learning to do that, they’re going to figure morale, and they’re going to discover more things with the use of AI, which they already are. I fully see that. And so yeah, apply that to climate change. There’s no reason why we can’t come up with better strategies and better understanding through it. So, I am hopeful.

Mark Lerner:

Yeah, I’m bullish. Bearish, which is a good one.

Jen Igartua:

The bull is good, right? Okay. Bull market. Yeah, I think there’s a bull in Wall Street. I think that’s what they want.

Mark Lerner:

I’m bullish on humanity and the future. I have to be. So rounding it out, there were three core changes I think that we kind of touched on before we started. And I think the final one was around kind of getting back to the simplicity of things, not trying to do so much, not trying to get overly complicated. That could apply to your tech stack and the things you’re actually focused on, but maybe you can help distill that down for me and help me understand what that really is about.

Jen Igartua:

Yeah, I think at the beginning of this, before the present times, there was pressure and a big tagline about doing more with less. And I think that leadership and businesses haven’t course corrected to the new normal. So yeah, the targets were too high, but we were still cutting people, et cetera. I think that’s normalized. I think that that’s better. Of course, you and I were talking about maybe it was too easy to operate businesses before, and so this is maybe what normal feels like. It’s hard. It’s hard to hit targets, it’s hard to scale businesses, and maybe that’s okay, but I think that what I’m seeing more of is this basics mindset, less customization, more tech consolidation, integrating things fully knowing that we can’t have standalone tools preferring to just not do it if you’re not going to have the space to do it.

Jen Igartua:

These are maybe what I would call first principles that I think, especially Rev ops, is they’ve been hurt before, and they’re now saying, no, you know what? I’m not doing it. If I can’t integrate it, you can’t have this tool sort of hanging on, or we can’t run three different go-to-market strategies at the same time. And so I’m seeing a lot more focus, knowing your bets and making them fully. And I think that’s actually really powerful. I think companies that have focus are the ones that are going far and knowing that, for example, if you’re a sub 5 million business and you’ve got four go-to-market motions, you are not going to do any of them, right? Right. Focus on nailing one, then two, then three, instead of trying to go to market all at once.

Mark Lerner:

Yeah. And so, do you think it’s kind of incumbent on somebody in an ops role to actually do that? To be like, we’re not going to do this. I’m putting my Gandalf stick down, and you shall not pass. We have to. Yeah.

Jen Igartua:

It’d be beautiful if I thought that Rev ops always had that authority to be like, no, you know what? We’re not doing that. That’s not always how it comes. I think that it’s a driving force. I think that the best operators are really great storytellers, and they’re really good program managers. And so how that might go is the marketing team, the sales team, and the CS team all have these motions, and we’re saying a new partner motion and a new self-serve motion. And we’re like, wow, that all sounds really amazing. Let me put that into a roadmap and show you what I can or cannot get done. And the fact that we can’t nail this, and it’s more of a coaching mindset, I’ve seen the places where you have very senior rev ops leaders or CROs with operational backgrounds, which I think is happening more and more.

Jen Igartua:

And I expect in the next ten years that all these VPs of rev ops will become CROs, and we’ll have this wave of very technical and very operations-minded CROs. And I think that that’s coming. In those cases, yes, I foresee them being there right at the beginning when they’re coming up with I all the strategies and the OKRs for the year and the vision of where the company’s going. Then yes, then it can be a single individual coming in and being like, no, working with the CEO directly if that’s not you, if you’re sitting a layer down, et cetera. I think what you can do is come up with the information; I like to, yes, and in these situations, but give all the information where I go, and that all sounds awesome. I also want to do a partner motion. I also want to do a community-led strategy, a podcast, events, and everything else. I want to do it all. Here’s systematically what we can get done, and either you give me more money and more headcount because my Rev ops team is a reflection of my roadmap. I’ll be able to do that, and my roadmap needs to be proportionate to what my business can do. And so if all that aligns, then I have the power to have that conversation.

Mark Lerner:

That looks like what you’re seeing is kind of the beginnings of that CRO role becoming more of an operations kind of next step. Whereas I think, unfortunately, often it seems like just an increase in title for VPU sales, right? Often, it’s just a replacement for chief sales officer. But so that’s an interesting observation, and I wonder if that’s something we’re going to see increase in how much it’s happening and if the pace of that change is going to increase.

Jen Igartua:

I mean, you need the experience. And so I think that right now, rev ops has obviously had a lot of investment, lots of, so we just have more people with a full experience of what it’s like to run sales, marketing, and cs. And those are the people that are just really well set up to be A CRO who actually has the ear of marketing and CS and understands fully all the pains and knows that if I fix some top-of-funnel things, then my meeting conversion rate will increase and I’m not just focusing on hiring more SDRs. Those are the kinds of experiences that can be elevated into that role. I think, yes, there are some CROs that are just VP of sales with a new title, of course, that exists. And sales are sometimes the easiest type of bet to take a bet on.

Jen Igartua:

So it’s like if you are risk averse, if the business is really breathing down your neck, then hiring two AEs feels like the easier thing than trying to fix a top-of-funnel problem. So I get it. I have a lot of empathy for that role, and I don’t really love it; I think that we’ve latched onto that. And I don’t mean to; I feel like I’m being a bitch right now. I think it’s a valid point mark, but I do think that it’s one of those things that’s been a little bit of the LinkedIn hole of SDRs are dead and outbound is dead, and CROs are just VP of sales. I think a lot of CROs are trying to do the CRO role. Some of them may or may not have the skill, and I don’t think that there are some bad CROs, of course, but I think, for the most part, people are trying to elevate themselves into that role and working really hard to do that. It’s just the number of changes we’ve gone through in the last year and a half; it’s very hard. And those people don’t stay in that role for very long. So they don’t have time to get in there and do it. So I guess I have a lot of sympathy for the CRO role and even folks that have a really big depth in sales. I think they are trying to expand into the other places.

Jen Igartua:

From my experience.

Mark Lerner:

And I wasn’t trying to downplay the value of CROs, I think totally. It’s just we

Jen Igartua:

Love them all. We love them all.

Mark Lerner:

Are any CROs overwatching right now? You’re the best. We love

Jen Igartua:

You. You’re the best.

Mark Lerner:

So I think this has been fantastic. I could probably talk about this all day, every day. I’m really looking forward to getting to see your session at the upcoming event, the Rev ops co-op event A in San Diego in

Jen Igartua:

May 28th

Mark Lerner:

On the 28th. Yeah, very excited. We’re going to be there. We’re going to have a very special guest booth. It’s going to be fun. Love that. Lot of fun. Very excited for San Diego. Before we sign off here, why don’t you tell the folks at home where they can maybe learn a little bit more about you or go nimbly or follow you on any sort of socials?

Jen Igartua:

Totally. You can follow my TikTok. Yeah, if you follow me on Twitter, it’s just me complaining to Delta about how their coffee’s bad. So don’t follow me on Twitter or LinkedIn; you can just find me. I’m pretty active on there. I started a new little video series called This Week in SaaS, where I covered something that happened in SaaS that week. These are two three-minute videos. So I would love for people to watch those. And then the other fun thing, if anyone wants to nerd out about B2C, I didn’t talk about that too much, but I also own a game company. I make physical board games. That’s awesome. It was a hobby. A hobby that is making over half a million dollars a year in revenue, and now becoming its own little business where we got picked up by Amazon. We’re having pitches with Walmart and Target for some of our games.

Jen Igartua:

We’re coming up with two more games this year. So it’s been really interesting to build a B2B consulting, working with the best SaaS companies, and then also at the same time building a $25 consumer goods and the marketing in both. I’m learning also I want more B2C and B2B. I think we just need to adopt a lot of what B2C has done. They’re way more innovative and have paved the way for how you buy and sell. And so I’ve had a lot of fun learning about that. That’s why I created this week in SaaS. I was like, I have fun with it. It’s videos that are fun. B2C brands are doing it. And so I’m leaning into that. So, if anybody wants to nerd out on that, I’d love to.

Mark Lerner:

Yeah, B2B is a few years behind B2C, but they’re always the leading one, right? I mean, Facebook was the one that figured out the kind of growth hacking. Totally. And we all use SaaS products now. So TikTok, and then now it’s like we’re all kind of starting to do short-form videos on

Jen Igartua:

LinkedIn has a beta feature. I saw that when you’re looking at your feed, you can now go video only. So it’s TikTok now?

Mark Lerner:

Yes, I have access to that. Do you have it? Yeah. And it is literally me. I’ve never had a TikTok account. I use Google YouTube shorts.

Jen Igartua:

You use Google Exactly. Google’s videos.

Mark Lerner:

Yeah. But it’s the same. It’s the exact same user interface. So it’s coming. Yeah.

Jen Igartua:

Very cool.

Mark Lerner:

Alright, well, thank you so much.