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Aligning the B2B Sales Process with Buyer Behavior

Henrique: Very happy to be here. Love the podcast and am a big fan of DealHub as well. So, I’m originally from Brazil, and I have worked in enterprise software for the last 15 years, primarily in sales. You mentioned Accenture and Salesforce. I’ve been through those two companies via acquisition, so it’s been an interesting journey.

I landed at Accenture after an acquisition and was managing sales teams there, to over about 20 million in revenue. And then another product company that got acquired by Salesforce, where I had the experience of building teams across the EMEA region. And that was a really fun ride. We grew a business from nothing in Europe to over a hundred million in ARR over three years, so that was really cool.

And then most recently, yes, I’ve been at G2. I am a software geek, I guess. I’m sort of really into B2B software. I think I have a very strong entrepreneurial itch that I keep scratching, but I’ve yet found my own business, but hopefully, that will happen in due course. And at G2, I had an opportunity to work with amazing companies and what really stood out for me was running G2 in Europe, just the amount of amazing B2B SaaS companies coming out of Europe.

And I got to work with companies like DealHub and many others who are now world leaders in their categories, which is really, really cool. And I think six years ago, I wouldn’t be sitting here talking about European SaaS companies, the way that we are today, which is why I just took the plunge and joined Ultimate back in November to head up our global sales org, and have been having a great time ever since.

Barry: That’s great. Really interesting to hear. I actually didn’t realize that that’s how you joined Accenture and Salesforce. That’s a good story. Maybe we’ll get that to that later in the podcast, some more background on that. To start, I’d like to discuss something that’s been on your mind and mine for the past couple of years is how buying has changed, and not just the B2C experience, but also the B2B buying experience.

This is a very broad topic and we can take this a few different ways, but I’m going to let you start where you want to take it. I know that at G2, for example, that’s a trend that’s been talked about, and I understand that this is something that you think about even in your free time. So, Henrique, let’s start. How has buying changed?

How Has the B2B Buying Experience Changed?

Henrique: So we’re talking specifically about B2B software buying, right? Well, I joined Ultimate primarily because I saw this huge acceleration of digitized ways of interacting, right? Whether you are in a B2C environment and all of a sudden all of retailers have gone from bricks and mortars to digital, right? And similarly, we’re seeing the same in B2B. The world that we operate in, we help customer support teams, so we’re helping customer support teams save millions in scaling costs for customer support functions.

If you think about any company that deals with customers, whether in B2B or B2C today, all of a sudden they’re thinking, okay, I’m not tied physically to any one location anymore, right? So whether it’s fewer people that they need to hire to scale, whether it’s reducing costs for outsourced teams, or rather it’s even freeing up existing teams to do more high-value, meaningful work.

I think the last couple of years has really accelerated digitization. So whereas Ultimate are providing what we call virtual agents for customer support teams, I think when we think about the impacts of this on B2B selling, there are really strong ramifications, right? So what’s happened? So I think ever since I was at G2, it became really clear to me that the whole B2B buyer experience has changed, right?

The way people buy B2B software has caused us to rethink our approach around sales and marketing. And interestingly as well, in the past, companies would be adopting either one strategy or another strategy, so they might be doing just inbound or just outbound as the way of going to market, or they might be doing account-based marketing, or they might be a product-led growth business.

Whereas today, what we’re seeing is companies doing one thing and another. And I think they’re doing this because they’re realizing that in order to improve the experience for buyers, they need to offer choices. They need to offer choices in terms of how you buy, how you contact us. And again, whether it’s in B2C that you can’t rock up to a shop anymore and process and exchange, but you want to be able to send them a text message, or you want to be able to do a chat online or just send an email, whatever it is that you are into, people want choices. And in B2B selling, I think it’s the same.

So as a result of this, I think it’s really interesting, five years ago, you would’ve laughed if you’d turned on the TV and you started seeing, on prime time television, TV ads for Adobe, Salesforce, right? Why are those companies spending huge amounts of money on TV ads? What happened to hyper-targeted, personalized, or account-based marketing at scale? Well, the funny thing is those companies are all still doing that stuff, but I think what we are seeing more of is the “and,” right? We’ll do this and we’ll do something else.

And so here in Europe and in the US, we’re seeing enterprise companies adopt product-led growth (PLG) go-to-market motions, which traditionally, we would’ve thought of as small businesses starting out, no sales team, they go PLG. And so I just think it’s really interesting in terms of how the way people are buying is being picked up now in B2B.

And they’re adopting these, when you think about PLG and you think about growth marketing, all of this was like bringing B2C tactics into the B2B world the same way we’re now seeing Adobe Salesforce doing TV ads. We are seeing B2B adopting more B2C plays. And I think it’s just a realization that, at the end of the day, you’re selling to a person and that person is on YouTube. They’re on Facebook. They’re not just reading Gartner reports or logging onto G2.

And so I think this is really encouraging us as well to think about our teams and how we make the sales experience better. Because of the way of selling of 10 years ago, where we have our structured sales process, and Barry, I don’t care where you’ve been online or how you’ve been interacting with my brand, let me tell you, the first thing we will do is a discovery call. Those days are dead. And so sales leaders and salespeople need to really rethink how they’re approaching customers and the whole buying process.

The Evolution of the Buying Process Opened New Marketing Channels

Barry: Yeah. I think that there’s a few interesting points. I even wrote them down. One that I wanted to point out that you talked about five years, not two years. So I think that’s also interesting. Two years obviously implying the COVID ramifications. And five years implying more of the, I would say B2C to B2B recognition that people are people, and organizations even if you’re talking to someone in corporate, you’re talking to a person, which happened before COVID, that trend started, but it was accelerated, I guess, through COVID, that digitalization.

The next piece I wanted to point out was also how you talk about the buying experience change, but also the selling experience has changed in multiple ways. One, we were talking about processes. We’re also talking about attacking, not to use an intense word, I guess, but attacking the customer in multiple ways through different channels, which is, I guess, was more of a B2C play and now is a B2B play.

Let’s talk more about that. Did the extra channels come because buyers needed that or did the extra channels come from PLG to enterprise because the B2B companies were just looking for new ways to make money? Who initiated that? Was it the company or was it the buyer forcing the company to do that?

Henrique: Yeah. I mean, when I think about it, I think it’s both. So I think buyers now are a lot more proactive about educating themselves, guiding themselves through a purchasing process than they were before. And it is a bit chicken and egg because there’s a lot more information being pushed out in multiple channels online by vendors as well. But equally, it’s also about vendors, as you said, going to channels that they thought originally, or maybe five years ago were not, or two years ago were not B2B channels. I don’t know about you, but when I went onto YouTube, I started seeing a bunch of B2B software ads in front of me.

And those ads have nothing to do with what I’m looking up on YouTube. I might be looking at a drone video and I’m getting project management B2B software ads popping up beforehand. So there’s a lot of push as well from brands and these channels, which I think is really smart. But fundamentally, I do believe that the sales team because of this is no longer the revenue owner.

I mean, I think HubSpot popularized the concept that the funnel is now a flywheel. What does that mean? It means not only that a customer doesn’t start at the top of a funnel and finishes at the bottom, but your customer is actually engaging with you at multiple stages of their life cycle, from initial purchase through to adoption, through to post-adoption, into expansion, and so on. And this is a vicious cycle.

But also your buyers are coming in at any stage of your funnel. And what that means is that you have different teams now that impact that buyer journey. There’s no more just direct sales channels, as you said, product marketing teams, growth teams, PLG teams, ABM teams, sales, customer success, sales development. 

The whole revenue piece has been disintermediated and decentralized across these multiple teams. And so it causes us to rethink what different teams should be doing and also how success should be measured, marketing, BDRs, SDRs, customer success, acquisition, account management. And I think the best teams are adapting the ways in which they work, but also the organizational structures that they have in order to get ahead in the market. Here at Ultimate, this applies not just how teams are set up, but also, for us, it applies very much in terms of how we structure our pricing.

We used to front-load a lot of the cost of the contract upfront. And because customers are now a lot more educated in terms of how other companies sell, how other people buy, there has been a big push in the market away from annual upfront subscriptions and more usage-based value-based pricing.

And so we are really rethinking, not just how we sell, but also how we price and package. And this is all down to how this whole revenue process, but also the buying behaviors have been completely decentralized over the last few years.

Alignment Across Revenue Functions

Barry: You brought up a lot of interesting points. Who should be working on aligning the revenue process to make sure that they’re getting leads? Is it the CRO? Is the CEO making the move to usage-based pricing from subscription pricing? Who’s whose role is that? Is it the rev ops person that was hired that was doing a lot of Salesforce things, and now they have more time to do more strategic things?

Henrique: Well, I think what this causes companies to place a bigger priority on cross-functional alignment. We’ve been talking for years about how when you think about a pipeline, okay, who owns the pipeline, right. Is it sales? Is it marketing? Is it business development? The reality is everyone. Everyone should have accountability for the pipeline, but everyone should be also targeted and rewarded on revenue. I think the days in which customer success, for example, targeted purely on renewal rates and NPS are gone.

I think customer success is now becoming a revenue driver and we’re seeing more and more customer success leaders target on revenue as well. Within sales, as you grow your business, you’ve got the ability to specialize your sales teams as well into acquisition teams and account management growth teams. 

When you look at the longer tail of the market, so smaller customers now, and we’re seeing marketing taking a much bigger share of responsibility for driving revenue in the whole self-service piece alongside product. And so it’s very hard to say that a chief revenue officer should have product, marketing, customer success, sales all reporting into them.

Well, actually we need to recognize that nowadays revenue is so disintermediated that what you really need is a really strong, small group of senior leaders who are incentivizing and targeted around revenue and working in very close alignment together. And that’s the move that we’re shifting to and Ultimate, and I am seeing in a lot of companies as well.

Should Product-Led Growth Companies Incentivize Sales Reps Differently?

Barry: Yes, I definitely have seen that a lot. And that’s one of the reasons for the podcast is that we focus on CROs and operations professionals, and also sales leaders who aren’t just viewing sales as a classic B2B sales, but that sales is much deeper. So let’s talk about sales teams.

Here’s something that came up with PLG, product-led growth. Should sales reps in product-led growth companies be incentivized differently than in other companies?

And I’ll tell you the background of this. One of the philosophies of product-led growth is that you get in early, so you land then you expand. So in theory, you could land for a $2,000 contract and your goal is to get them to buy a $50,000 contract by year one or by year two. And since they have brand affinity, they’re actually more likely to buy it than just reaching to them on just YouTube ads, and just TV ads, and et cetera. What’s your take on this for sales teams and the product-led growth space?

Henrique: So I think it’s really interesting with PLG because everyone wants to get in on it. Everyone wants to reduce their cost of acquisition and that’s why they find PLG attractive. Everyone understands that selling incremental revenue or expansion revenue is three to four times cheaper than selling the initial deal. And so the whole concept of ‘land and expand’ makes sense and the least that you can spend on acquiring a customer, the more your unit economics are going to look good when you look at it in the long run.

The challenge with PLG is that you’re making a big bet as a company on the value of your solution because PLG is all about giving people the product either for free or for a very low initial cost, helping them see the value, and then capitalizing on that value further down the line rather than upfront. And I think a lot of the challenges that we have over the last few years are, and again, I was at G2 for three years and I’ve been seeing how many tech companies are popping up and how many categories.

I mean, I’ll be honest with you, Barry, there’s a lot of questionable tech out there, which have benefited from a lot of liquidity in the market and has allowed companies to launch products that in many other economic environments would not have thrived and then they want to go and try and do PLG. And these are companies that are trying to do PLG where the adoption rate of their products is 10% of users using it or something like that. So you’ve got to be very careful.

And what does that mean for sales teams? Well, if you have a product where you can tie the unit of value of what you charge people for to usage and value rather than number of licenses, for example, then I think you’re setting yourself up for success. So that’s the first thing. When you look at the sales teams, I don’t see any issue with reducing the upfront spend if you’ve got the confidence that you’ve got a strong customer success process and support for your customers.

I would much rather incentivize our reps to start small and achieve more in the first 12 months than to sell a super discounted deal upfront where value is yet to be proven and realize that we could have delivered a lot more of that value and charged our customers a lot more for it.

And so we’re actually in our comp plans here at Ultimate, we have as I’ve been saying shifted a lot more from seeking money upfront to actually realizing that over the first 12 months. That’s largely down to the fact that our product is completely priced-based on the value that you get out of it rather than how many people are signed up for it, for example. But that does mean that we have to think about what that comp plan looks like and what kind of behaviors we want to incentivize and enable our teams to engage with customers.

And also, how does that challenge you in terms of thinking of acquisition teams and account management teams? So some companies will say, okay, for the first six months post-signature or the first 12 months post-signature, the account executive is still driving the growth of that account alongside the customer success team, for example, or actually, no, it is a pure handoff and their compensation is all based on how many new logos they can bring in rather than how much those new customers are paying us.

So you really have to start to think about how you’re incentivizing those teams and what kind of behaviors you want to drive. For us, for now, as being a case of you know what, we’re just going to pay you on anything within that account within the first 12 months and it’s in your interest to maximize how much value and therefore, revenue that account brings to the business.

Barry: Right.

Henrique: Whereas previously, it was a case of you sell the first deal, you don’t get paid anything after that. So it is really causing us to rethink how we set up our teams, but then also how do we structure their comp?

Barry: I’m sure that’s something to look up every so often to see where people are going. Also, it forces the sales teams to have a lot more trust in the customer success account manager team because they’re relying on them right now versus just relying on marketing, which is more aligned in buying, which also adds pressure, but also adds more revenue if it works.

Henrique: And it de-risks our revenue growth because we don’t want to be selling stuff upfront that we then can’t realize the value of and have a potential churn or downgrade on our hands 12 months down the line.

Barry: Right.

Henrique: Again, if you’re building a great product and you’re giving your customers the best possible support to make the most out of it, then you should have no issues with protecting your downside and increasing your upside and really locking in future revenue growth that way, rather than selling a bunch of stuff upfront and then racing against the clock to try and make sure that most of that gets used up and the value gets realized.

Product-Led Growth Marketing Makes Attribution Easier

Barry: Right. A hundred percent. One other thing about product-led growth, which is cool, at Wix, I worked at Wix for our listeners, so there’s two aspects. One, we could talk about the bottom up, and then we could also talk from top to bottom. But one aspect that was really interesting, the YouTube ads, since we had a free product but also a paid product, we were able to evaluate how effective the YouTube ads were by just how much people were paying on it on day one. So one, you know you’ll get a percentage of your users that are going to come in free, a large percentage. The majority of the users are going to come in free.

But over time since Wix spent so much money on YouTube ads, they can actually understand what is our benchmark, what is the number that we want to hit of people that are paying on the day that they see that YouTube ads, and that was the number that they were going off versus a B2B company that doesn’t have the product-led growth or it doesn’t have a thing that someone can pay for that day on a computer, YouTube ads become more of a mystery box, kind of like how TV is.

Henrique: Is it influencing a deal or is it …

Barry: Yeah, exactly. So you have to be more creative with it. You can look for brand searches, you can look for website traffic.

Henrique: Yeah. It’s a challenge of attribution in B2B.

Barry: Right.

Henrique: Which is the bane of marketers existence over the last few years, right?

Barry: Exactly. So product-led growth actually makes the pain of attribution more smooth and easier actually to understand. Wix used to do Super Bowl ads and then they stopped because they really brought it down to science because the YouTube ad …

Henrique: Like a badge of honor, right. I’m going to have my Super Bowl ad or going to have the 405 Freeway in San Francisco, I’m going to have the billboard in the 405.

Barry: Right. Yeah, yeah, exactly. But then what you’re saying, then people are also trying to hit multiple channels because people are in different places and the influence does affect you, but then the attribution becomes more clouded. But that’s one thing I like about product-led growth, that it helps refine the attribution a bit more. On the flip side to product-led growth, Wix was product-led growth before product-led growth was cool. It used to be called freemium, at least in that aspect.

One of the initiatives there was to look at how we can help sell a new enterprise package, which was a really fun thing. So one of the methodologies was just looking at email addresses and seeing how many companies have the same domain name, like @ blank, blank, blank, and then think of a good opposite way. 

Henrique: Yeah, so the enterprise motion, kind of like the box model that R. Levi pioneered. Right?

Barry: So exactly like that. Sometimes when we talk about it, it sounds new, but this box has been IPO’d for some time. But now everyone’s doing it, everyone’s talking about product-led growth. The buyers are becoming more aware at least in the B2B space about this idea of product-led growth.

And that’s also, we were talking about this before, is it the buyers and sellers, the chicken and the egg? Buyers now expect product-led growth, I think, and I’m curious to hear what you think because they see all these other companies doing product-led growth, and they’re like, oh, I want it for free. I want to try it out. Oh, I want to be able to access this. And that, in essence, changed how they buy. Not because of COVID, not because of what we were saying before about choices, it’s about just that’s what they’re used to, even for B2B buying the past few, even years, I would say.

Self-Service Buying in B2B

Henrique: Yeah. And what you’ve got to remember as well is again, we can label it PLG, we can label it whatever we want, but with the acceleration of the informed B2B buyer in the digital world where they are educating themselves so much about your product and 20 others in ways that they would never be able to a while back, what we are seeing is there’s a big drive around self-service.

Like, I should be able to find out what I need, get the answers I want, and then start using this, and figuring out if it’s any good. I shouldn’t have to speak to a salesperson. And as a leader of a sales team, that makes me kind of question what we are here for? Because we’re seeing these kinds of motions not just in SMB and mid-market, we’re seeing this in enterprise as well.

Now, granted an enterprise you get into when the company is serious about doing this at scale, customization, implementation, security reviews, and that’s where the sales motion really kicks in. But it does really cause us to question it. When you do finally speak to a prospect or when a prospect finally speaks to a salesperson, how is that conversation different today?

I will tell you, it is significantly different because if you rock up to that conversation, as I was saying earlier with your discovery guide, thinking it’s an initial conversation and your prospect is 10 steps ahead of you, it’s not going to go well. So you have to be asking yourself, and I know you want to talk a little bit about tech, but what tech do I have access to that helps me understand where this buyer is in their journey? What have they had access to? Who have they spoken to? What have they consumed?

And if I’m lucky enough to get some time with them during a sales cycle, how can I add real value? How can I make sure that they will remember this interaction and not the interaction that they’re having with 20 other vendors? Because guess what? They’re not waiting for people to rock up in their office anymore.

They’re having 20 Zoom calls a day now. And so as a salesperson, you have to do your research. But when I say your research, I don’t mean going to their website and searching Google News. I actually leverage technology that helps you understand whether you are in their purchasing cycle, but then plan and execute flawlessly when you get one-on-one time.

If you just follow your playbook, you’re not going to make progress and you’re not going to have two-hour meetings anymore or one-hour demos. Your ring of opportunity is much smaller. You’ve got to come prepared, you got to know your market, you got to know your client, and you’ve got to make a lasting impression.

Increase Your Win Rate to Scale Revenue

Henrique: And so I think that’s really caused us to rethink, okay, let’s try and define when we engage with the customer, where are they, and therefore, how should we engage? One of the things that we realized was because we weren’t doing this, we have a fantastic product, again, I came from G2. I had access to a lot of data. I joined Ultimate because we’re the best at what we do. We’re the number one globally in our category as well, like DealHub.

And what I was surprised by when I joined was that our win rate was quite low, Barry, so it was about 15 percentage points lower or 10 percentage points lower than what I wanted or expected it to be. And as you know, that has big implications for pipeline generation and pipeline goals. And it’s just you need to sort out your win rate if you’re going to scale revenue.

And I was like, how is that possible? And when I looked at the numbers, I noticed that actually when we’re in a competitive deal, our win rate is like, we win three out of four deals 75%. So what we were doing is when we’re in the right deal with the right buyer at the right stage, we’re knocking it out of the park. And there’s a lot of clarity for us about what’s going on, where is the buyer, what do they need?

But when we’re going in blind, because you know what, you look like a buyer, you’re in the right industry, you may or may not be in the market for what we do right now. We were wasting so much resources and so much time. And so it just dawned upon me that it’s all down to how the buyer behavior is changing, the self-service element. And if you are tapping into an understanding where they’re at, you can be really selective about how you spend your time and ensure that you’re not wasting resources and time. And I think that’s really important for us to acknowledge as sales and revenue leaders.

Prioritizing Sales Reps’ Focus

Barry: We were talking about prioritization for your sales team. So with that knowledge about where the customer is in their buying cycle, how does that impact the conversation with prospects? Were you trying to shift sales reps to stop talking to customers that weren’t interested or that weren’t looking at competitors? Or, were you asking them to ask prospective customers at the beginning if they were looking at competitors and kind of guide them into the buying process of that? What did you do with that information, or did you stop talking to those people completely, or did you give them to specific sales reps that might be better at those types of conversations? What’s the action item with that information?

Henrique: I think that if as a revenue organization, across sales and marketing, you’re still operating on the basis of, okay, it’s a lead because they’ve racked up these points or they’ve downloaded two white papers and attended a webinar. If you’re operating that way, you are still handing over target leads and accounts into sales too early.

And I think again because now buyers leave so many breadcrumbs and they’re also open about where they’re at, we need to stop being naive and thinking that every customer needs to go through our sales process, and actually understand, okay, are they an ideal customer profile? Do you have a challenge that we can help? But actually, are they in the market? Are they ready to buy right now?

And sometimes you do need to engineer that, and you will engineer that based on your understanding of that company, their business priorities, and what matters to them right now. But that’s going to be the minority of cases for salespeople. In the majority of cases, you are just going to match where they’re at. And in most cases, these leads that are coming over without that information, you are going to be wasting your time and your resources. And so that’s really the change for us.

And it’s not a case of, hey, are you talking to one of our competitors? If you are, great, let’s talk. But it’s actually let’s understand if despite the fact that we can help you, is now the right time for you to buy? And I think that’s what’s missing and you can use technology to help you with that. But you can also use a new approach to engaging with your customers that respects the fact that customers will show signs of potentially benefiting from your solution much sooner now than before because before, they weren’t engaging digitally as much as they are today.

And so you’re getting all these false positives today that you should be targeting them and engaging them when in fact, they’re nowhere near ready to start engaging with you in demos, proposals, negotiations, project planning. So I think that’s why you need to be really, really careful and really hone in on that early conversation, whether it’s a deal that both of you should be in and whether it should be in your pipeline. So qualifying out earlier is, I think, has become more and more important than ever because of this change in the buyer behavior.

Buyer Behavior Must Change the B2B Sales Process

Barry: That’s really interesting. One thing that I’d like you to repeat – you said that if you go into that first conversation and you think that they don’t know what your product is or what they want, then that’s like being naive about it. Is that what you said, something around that line?

Henrique: Yeah, absolutely. By the time you speak to a customer, they will know who you are, they’ll have an idea or an impression of what you do, and the chances are they will have a pretty good guess of your main competitors as well. So starting that conversation assuming that you are the holder of all this information and that you’re going to bestow it upon your customer is, I think, a very naive way of engaging in B2B sales in this modern age.

Barry: I think that’s brilliant. 

Henrique: We had a statistic at G2, we did a lot of research with buyers. And again, I know you’ve asked me the difference between the US and Europe. One of the things that was actually common across US and Europe buyers is that 80% of the time, by the time a customer reaches out to a vendor, they’ve already made up their mind.

Barry: Right. Wow. 

Henrique: So it actually asks you the question of what happens all of the other times, with all the other customers that are not reaching out to you? They’re much further along the decision-making process by the time you speak to them.

Barry: That’s interesting.

Henrique: I think COVID has accelerated it. Because I don’t know about you, but I haven’t been to a software conference, I think in the US now it’s picking up again, but I haven’t been to a live software conference where vendors are actively engaging with buyers and generating leads and so on, in over two years. We know software buying hasn’t slowed down, so people are going somewhere else. So they’re going online and so it has accelerated.

Barry:  Yeah. Absolutely. There’s one chart that just came up in my head that I saw, I think it was last year, just that it talked about dating, so pretty random. But I think it actually talks to this topic, that the number one way people start dating is through online apps.

Henrique: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Barry: And that’s definitely more than Matchmakers, which wasn’t surprising, right? But it’s also more than just friends introducing friends. That was what surprised me.

Henrique: Yeah, I think I’ve seen this chart. And it’s like, I don’t know, in the ’60s, it was school and high school. And then in the ’90s, that’s how I met my wife, it was work. So it was the place we met. And now it’s online. Yeah.

Barry: Right. Exactly. If you know anything about online dating or know someone that’s done online dating, they don’t just look at the person’s profile on Tinder. They also look at Facebook, Instagram, and that’s what they’re doing with B2B companies, right? Again, this is the majority of daters. And millennials, I think I read 50%. And even if you’re not a millennial, people expect things quick and fast. But the majority of people have practice.

Okay, they have a date, let’s not stalk them, but let’s check them out online. Let’s see their online presence. Same with B2B. We have to assume that they’ve already done this process and we could do that pretty simply through some qualification even. It doesn’t have to change everything, you have to be okay with the fact that the processes are broken or they’re new. So, that’s super interesting.

Henrique, I think I could talk about this all day, so I think I’m going to stop it and we’ll have to continue at a different time. I really appreciate this. It really made me think about it a little bit differently. I think also for our listeners, the product-led growth conversation was also interesting. Again, that’s either the chicken or the egg. We don’t know. Is it the buyer or the seller that wanted it more?

But I think that’s also very relevant and that also shows that the buying experience has caused the selling experience to change. And the selling experience, processes need to change. Are you changing the pricing? Are you changing that system for your own sales team? So there’s a lot of ramifications for these changes, not just going digital, which is definitely step one. If you’re listening and you haven’t gone digital, I highly recommend it. And yeah. So, Henrique, thanks so much for coming on.