About the speaker

Mike Groeneveld is the Vice President of Global Sales at EverStage, the #1 rated sales commission software. Having begun his career as a BDR over a decade ago, Mike has developed a unique approach to sales leadership that focuses on the concept of extreme ownership.

Mark Lerner:

All right, everybody, welcome to this episode of the Revamp podcast. I’m joined by Mike, the head of global sales at EverStage, today, and we’re going to talk all about his experience as a sales leader. But before we dive into that, Mike, why don’t you introduce yourself to the folks at home and give us a little background?

Mike Groeneveld:

Yeah, absolutely. So my name’s Mike Groeneveld. I understand why you didn’t want to take a crack at pronouncing that last name. It’s not easy. 

It’s Mike. Yeah, I’m good with it, man. 

So I’m like a lifelong salesperson. In my current role, I’m the VP of global sales at a company called EverStage, but I started my career in medical software. And so it was at a company back when doctors’ offices were still using paper versus electronic health records, and I was kind of on that wave of trying to get people and doctors to go digital. So I started in that sort of capacity, and then I did my BDR role. I moved into a sales rep role, and then that led me to a company called Bright Edge, which is an SEO platform, and I was an AE there. That’s how I moved into sales leadership. Throughout my career, I’ve managed sales teams for anywhere from zero million in revenue to over a hundred million in revenue. And I’ve seen kind of all the good, the bad, the recessions, the knots, and I’ve learned a lot along the way, both positively and negatively, and excited to share my learnings.

Mark Lerner:

And I think that’s kind of a good place to start. You do have this really interesting background, and you have a lot of experience starting. A lot of us, even in myself as a marketer, I started in sales. We all kind of start somewhere around there, but you moved from a very non-technical world into where you’re at today. And so, throughout that time, things have changed. We were chugging along, and 2020 came, and the whole world turned upside down for a while. It kind of seemed like, I don’t know, maybe everyone’s going to go bankrupt. But then the interest rates went down money, and it had this kind of weird effect, especially in the SaaS space where many companies actually did extraordinarily well because there were more budget people working from home, and they needed more tools, things like that. And obviously, in the last year and change, we’ve kind of gone to the other extreme in a lot of ways. And so that’s caused a lot of choppiness, and some companies haven’t made it. Some have excelled, and some have found ways to be flexible and adapt to a changing market. But I mean, from your perspective, just throughout the time, what has that experience been like as a sales leader kind of seeing those changes happen? Were you able to tell they were coming, or was it kind of all of a sudden? What is the process of saying, okay, well, something’s changing now, and we have to take stock of how we go forward?

Mike Groeneveld:

So I saw Covid coming a mile away. No, no. I definitely will touch on how COVID changed things, but actually, when you asked that question, it kind of brought me back to more of demand generation and pipeline generation. As I mentioned, I think many of us are in sales. I started off my career as a BDR, and it used to be just hardcore quantity, hitting the phones, hitting the pavement, and volume; work ethic got you where you needed to go. And certainly, as the times have changed, I think as a sales leader, I constantly have to ask myself, am I selling how my prospects want to buy, or am I selling based off of how I want to sell? And I think at a root that really comes from just the microcosm of that is just the pipeline generation. So obviously, today, it’s all about intent and demand and how you start by creating the intent and then capture that intent at the right time when your prospect is ready to actually take a demo and not everybody’s ready to hit your website, and they want a demo right then and there.

So there’s a lot of learning and a lot of continued growth. I think, even today, about how you need to think about pipeline generation. And now that’s not even really just a sales function, and that’s a marketing function and how, from my perspective, how the whole ecosystem of us as an organization really think about everything that we do when it comes to sales and pipeline is the first one that comes to my head about what’s been so different. I’ve had to bring in really great leaders who run our BDR teams because I can’t just pull from my experience today what worked for me, but what works today is not. So I’ve had to learn quite a bit and continue to have to learn and evolve there. But from a COVID perspective, I think again, the one thing that I think a lot of sales folks and sales leaders rightly so believe down in their core is that they’re in control of literally every outcome that is put in front of them.

I am a big believer in extreme ownership, and that concept is like I have a number I need to hit. It doesn’t matter what the circumstances are; I don’t need to hit that number, and as a leader, I need my team to perform regardless of what disease has flooded the world. But I think what you end up kind of realizing as you continue to grow, and certainly what Covid kind of brought, is that you got to really make sure that you’re with a company that has product market fit and that you’re really with a company that is hardcore solving a real need and a real pain. You can be the best salesperson in the world, and Covid exposed this. You can be the best salesperson in the world, but if somebody I was just interviewing somebody says it is top of mind, they used to work at a company like Expedia, and they got laid off during Covid because nobody traveled anymore. So I think one, it’s like there’s certainly some realities to that where you could do everything, and if everything else related to your product and your company isn’t really delivering the right sort of value, it might be time to make a switch. So one, I certainly think there’s an element of COVID that happened, and that exposed a lot of organizations, not necessarily people, but I think as I think about that now, I’ve certainly been in leadership positions where, again, marketing really wasn’t good, products not great.

Nobody’s really making money from a sales perspective. So hiring was a pain, and nothing was really kind of working. And I stepped into that role thinking, Hey, I’m going to be able to figure this out. And it really takes more than just you as selfishly as you think you have to be as a sales leader. You really have to collaborate and think about how you’re selling, how you’re generating pipeline, and how you’re positioning your whole customer journey post-contract signing in relation to all these other departments. As you grow in leadership, you almost have to be the glue versus the expert in the craft. So I think that’s how I’ve seen it grow. That’s how I’ve seen it evolve. And I think certainly that’s how you’re going to be successful is making sure that each department in your organization is really working in conjunction with each other and that you understand you all have a common goal, common good, and how can you really live that yourself So everybody else feels that way as well.

Mark Lerner:

And that kind of philosophy, the of extreme ownership, how did you develop that? Was that something that was an early role or mentor you had that was their philosophy, and you took it on? Or was it something that’s kind of grown over time?

Mike Groeneveld:

So I think it was something, my old boss Michael Riesen, shout out Michael. He made all of our leaders at a company I was at called Bright Edge. He made all of our sales leaders read the book and then write their three best things, like writing a book report, which I’m sure sales leaders were really fucking thrilled to have that project thrown at Ater’s plate. But it really kind of helped me. It helped put a language to how I already kind of naturally felt right. It wasn’t anything like earth-shattering to me. I think I was already living like that. So I will explain the background of that and why, but I will shout out to Michael for allowing me to explain this to other people and also shout out to Jocko Willink, his book.

So, ultimately, I grew up super poor. If I wanted to get new shoes on the first day of school, I had to go pressure-wash driveways. I lived in Florida; they go pressure-wash driveways for it. And I’ve seen, and I’ve had to live, that nothing’s handed to you, literally nothing. So I felt some really, really low lows. And then I realized that, hey, nobody cares, right? The world’s going to move on. And so it’s either you do something about it, and you don’t make yourself the victim, or you fade, right? Or you just live a miserable existence. So that, at its root, is kind of what that concept is about. And I was kind of forced to have to do that, or else I was just going to live a miserable life. Reading that book and being able to give some hardcore examples about how others can do it has really kind of changed the game for me.

Mark Lerner:

And I am a big fan of that philosophy, a big fan of him. But one would think that the concept of taking ownership and your responsibility, things like that are just obvious, but it might clash with certain kinds of, let’s say, generationally, it might be a challenge, especially with the name extreme ownership. Have you had a challenge kind of building the culture around that as you grow the team?

Mike Groeneveld:

So you bring up generationally…

Mark Lerner:

Yeah, I was tip-towing around it.

Mike Groeneveld:

You’re doing a good job there. No, but I think it’s very real. So how I get around that and how I navigate that whole concept is, first off, I’m a hardcore expectation setter, and I also lead from and just live in a very real and vulnerable way. So, number one, if you want to join an organization and be around me, I’m going to shoot it straight, and I’m going to live by extreme ownership. I’m happy to teach it to you and guide you through it, but the expectation is that if you’re going to join an organization that I’m a part of, you’re going to have to embrace that as well. And I preface that that’s not for everybody. You know what I mean? I think what I’ve really thrived is not at organizations that I step into that are already gigantic.

It’s really on the climb up, which is really kind of where I’ve made my mark. And so naturally, there’s going to be things that are wrong and that you think the company should have that they don’t, and situations where things are outside of your control that are detriments to you and how you handle that with an ability of, I need to figure this out, and it’s on me to figure this out. If you start there, everything kind of figures itself out. So one, I make no bones about what sort of culture that you’re walking into, but two, I also am very, very detailed with setting expectations. So what does that actually mean day to day? And I’ll give you an example.

There’s no need for us to reschedule meetings for anything that we do. We’re in control. We have to be prepared. This is our job. There’s no excuse if a meeting holds; if our prospect is willing to show up, we are willing to be prepared for it, period. So, set the expectations. It’s not going to be like, Hey, I need to go to the doctor you schedule around that. You know what I mean? So that’s kind of one another. If I give you a task, my expectation is that you complete that task in a timely manner that doesn’t sacrifice quality. And obviously, I’m not trying to have you rushed to do something and not finish one project before you have to work on another. But my expectation is that you answer promptly, especially in a remote world, when you can, and that a task gets completed in a timely manner. If not, then please let me know why and when I can accept it.

Little things like that. I think getting those out really, really early is really the root of the whole generational problem where people will think that there’s an issue that if we would’ve just gotten ahead of that prior to it happening, you realize it’s not as big of a deal as it might seem, but not doing that can really dive you down a rabbit hole to where it becomes a way bigger issue than it ever needed to be if we would’ve just set the right expectations at the beginning. So being real, being vulnerable, letting people know that when I mess up, and then three, setting the right expectations.

Mark Lerner:

I have come to appreciate being honest upfront and forward with expectations ahead. It may feel uncomfortable for some people at first, but it gets over a whole bunch of discomfort that’ll happen later if you don’t do it.

Mike Groeneveld:

I also think a point of that is when I roll out, so whenever I have a new hire that comes on, I go through this list of expectations and the expectation explanation. Every single thing has to have a why, right? So I’m saying my expectation is this, and the why is right, but it does not make the list. If I don’t have that, why, right? But I also need to explain to you why so you can ultimately be comfortable with it. And I also always preface that you don’t have to be comfortable with it right away, either. The biggest thing is to be open with me about why you’re not feeling right. This is extreme ownership as well. The biggest thing is to create a culture where your people can feel open with like, Hey, I don’t agree with that. Here’s why I don’t agree with that. So we can ultimately come to terms with how we get there, and maybe it means I need to adapt a little bit, right? I’m not naive to that. So I think when you’re setting those expectations and explaining why, it becomes a little bit less of a. I’m telling you this versus this is why we’re doing this.

Mark Lerner:

Yeah, I love that. And so it’s a bit of a kind of departure from the culture conversation. You had mentioned that you kind of thrive, or it’s your sweet spot, coming into a company that’s at product-market fit on the way up and kind of helping to feed the fire and really get the engine going. I’ve been thinking about this a lot because it’s very clear to me that, and I’m very grateful that the company I’m in today does have a product market fit. And I’ve worked at very early stage companies that we were like, maybe we do, maybe we don’t. Very clear to me in retrospect that it wasn’t the case. But especially from the outside, if you’re looking at a new role where your sweet spot is in that place, how can you really know it, or what are the things that you can look at to understand that?

Mike Groeneveld:

That’s a really good question. So one, I think the biggest thing that I would suggest, and that I proactively do for folks that I hire, is to send them gone calls of real-life scenarios. Not all closed, one deal, some closed lost deals, and some that are still in the pipeline. I want you to feel how this actually goes. And there’s a lot of benefits to doing that. One, they get the right expectation of what they’re walking into, but two, you can also get a feel for what their feedback was after hearing it. And you get a sense of how they think about things from a sales perspective. But that’s also how I did it. But I also think that it’s very easy when you’re in the seat, and you’re at the company, to understand those things and understand that you have product market fit and really know what the competitors are and whatnot.

But really, you have to think about how you do that proactively without being in the seat. So the reality is how you actually understand that is one. Look at the two G reviews and understand how many are in the space. How many reviews do they have? What is the feedback that they get? How does that relate to the company that you’re looking at? Another one, and this sounds a little bit naive. This sounds kind of a little bit weird, but rather, reach out to customers, reach out to that company’s customers, and ask how they feel about the product. Reach out to a sales rep at the company or whatever role you’re getting into, reach out to somebody there ad hoc, and just say, Hey, I would love to pick your brain. It’s another thing that I do proactively when I hire folks to have ’em speak with the team, get a sense you’re going to be, what’s this culture all about?

And so they’ll give you the answers for sure, because living it, if you try to do that research by just hardcore, not interacting with people, just looking at articles and press releases and things of that nature, you’re probably not going to know the full depth of it. So I would certainly suggest starting there so you get a sense of what questions to even ask, but then actually dig in with the reality, dig in with people. I think as a microcosm, I’m just a big fan of that in general, even when you need to learn something, period, to do that.

Mark Lerner:

Yeah. It’s such an interesting question, probably outside the scope of this conversation, but one I think about a lot because it’s not necessarily there’s some magical formula where you input the numbers; no, is there a product-market fit here or not? It’s kind of just a vibe, which is kind of not a great way to measure things, but it’s clear to me now that the situation we’re in today is one where there is product market fit. And I look back at previous ones, and there wasn’t. But I am continuing on that idea of coming into a company that’s kind of on an upward trajectory, having found product market fit and really taking it to the next stage. And this is a pretty big question, so maybe we could take it in pieces, but what’s the playbook? I mean, how does one do that? If you’re expected to take things to a different level than they are, what’s the playbook?

Mike Groeneveld:

So I think the first thing, and this is really, really hard in any role, but certainly in a sales role, is to listen and learn. Before you give opinions you don’t know. You do not know the answer on day one; you do not know the answer. Week one, the answers that you ultimately will give nine times out of 10 will be dumb. That won’t actually be the answer that you think a month from now. So, number one is to be comfortable outside of your normal habits. It’s like you ask me a question, I want to give you an opinion, and you want to drive value naturally, but you actually really have to think. I need to absorb it here. I need to listen and learn.

One of my former colleagues joined an organization where they gave that individual nine months of listening and learning, and he was in a leadership role for nine months, and I was like, holy shit. I was hardcore in making business-changing decisions for nine months. But I certainly think in the first week or two, at least really go out of your way to not give opinions and really just try to learn. So I think that’s number one. Number two, and this is a lot easier in today’s day and age, but you have to really get your hands dirty in whatever your ultimate responsibilities are going to be. So, I’ll give you an example. So we are lucky at every stage, and in today’s day and age, I think most organizations will use some call recording tools. So, we use Gong. So I could go and literally just spend hours and hours catching up on what the product is. Number one, what is the real need that we’re solving? What is the why behind the questions that are being asked? What are the objections I can expect to happen most often? So again, it’s learning that, and then it’s like, how are we then handling it, right? How are we responding to that? How are we presenting the technology versus what the technology actually does and what each feature does? How are we answering the objection versus what are the objections? And so it’s like, get into it.

You can’t be a good leader. You can’t actually drive change unless you foundationally know what the reality of what your people are dealing with is. And then I’d say the third thing is people; ultimately, you’re only going to go as far as your people. And so you have to establish that you are there to build trust and that it’s not something that you expect to have right away. You expect to earn it, and you expect to learn from them. And again, going into what I was touching on briefly, it’s like being vulnerable. I don’t know everything. I do obviously have my experience, and I’m sure ultimately I’ll be able to help you, but right now, I’m going to; I have some dumb questions. And it’s because you need to go through those bumps in the road in order to be able to drive some significant value.

And if you start your people conversations off of a plane like that, I think you’re setting yourself up for success because, ultimately, you will be delivering value to them, or else you’re screwed anyways. So I think it’s kind of starting at that foundation and then obviously being a human being. So, at the end of the day, get to know your people on a real level, get to know why they do what they do, why they are who they are, and then dive into how they do their job, what they can improve, what they think the company should improve at, so on and so forth. So I think it’s like listening, diving in deep, going with the people, and then trying to impact change all the while. I think there are going to be micro-moments where your experience can actually drive some inherent value and actually move the needle without totally needing to go to an extreme.

I’ll give you an example. I’ve taken over organizations before where there were some simple blocking and tackling sales plays and tactics that just weren’t being done, that I don’t need to know anything to know that you need to ask for a next meeting at the end of every call. I don’t need to know anything about the product to know. I need to give a really good upfront contract. I don’t need to know anything about the product to know that when I make my discovery if I’m not taking the answers they give me from discovery and tying those back into as I present the technology, it’s going to be valuable. So, that all comes from experience. So the net of it is you’ll probably be able to drive value just pulling from that experience, but you got that experience from actually living it and taking time and being there. So don’t try to rush that.

Mark Lerner:

Yeah. I mean, there are so many different strands I could pull on and go further down, but unfortunately, we’re coming to the end here. But before we do, if there’s anywhere that the folks at home could maybe learn a little bit more about you or every stage, now’s the time to let ’em know.

Mike Groeneveld:

Yeah, absolutely. So feel free to reach out to me on LinkedIn, Mike Rove’s, a ton of letters and a ton of ease in the last name, but if there’s anything you want to talk about, I’m an open book. I’m a really big believer that you get out what you put out. So, if there’s a scenario you want to talk through, I’m more than happy to do that. I do that with people; that’s how I learn. And so I’m more than happy to. And then, at every stage, we’re the top-rated commission automation platform on G two Untrust Radius, on Gartner Peer Insights. And so you can find us pretty much anywhere. If you have any commission problems, we probably have a solution that’ll be a really good fit for you. So that’s where you can find us.

Mark Lerner:

All right, Mike, thank you so much. Hopefully maybe one day we’ll be able to have a part two and go even further in that. It was super fascinating, but really appreciate your time and thanks again.

Mike Groeneveld:

Yeah, likewise.